The server economy is dead

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TheOneSoldier
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At the moment, there is no realistic way to make large amounts Rhines/Diamonds without dozens to hundreds hours of mining or trading through players and their shops, which at least half of the market shops are broken/sold out.
Most players with high amounts of Rhines/Diamonds can't possibly spend them, and much less wealthy players can't afford more pricey items as well.
Many valuable items, such as elytra and hearts of the sea, are almost exclusively obtained through admin shops, and items like sponges and shulker boxes flat out don't have working shops in stock at a reasonable price at all, effectively making them unobtainable.
End exploration feels like a garbage experience, with the border expanding at a snail's pace, along with bridging and running thousands of blocks with a poor chance to obtain anything at all with the ever-present danger of death as well.
Are there any plans/ideas to change or improve the server's economy at the moment, as mostly nothing has been said/done regarding the economy since most admin shops have been removed?
Last edited by TheOneSoldier on 24 Mar 2021, 09:49, edited 1 time in total.
:) Ruin
Najyk
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You're not really painting a great picture here, i'm sure it's not that bad... Also, be the change you want to see, bring some ideas in here :)

Not just The_One_Soldier, any ideas how to improve the server are supposed to be posted on the forums!
daphlipan
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In some points I agree and in some i disagree.

I disagree with:
- the point that shulker boxes are a rarity. I mean i am very sad about the fact that they removed the poisonous potatoe trade as well and yeah end busting is not worth the effort. I raided a huge end city and killed about 30 shulkers with looting3 and got maybe 15 shells. The end is not extending its border anymore. its stuck at 3071 / / 3071. Even if there may be some end cities left that are unraided they are very hard to find and you have to spend hours in the end.
Voting gives you shulker shells as well and its way less dangerous to die while voting. Also if more people would vote on this server more shulkers would be going around which leads to much cheaper prices for them.

I agree with:
- the point that sponges are a rarity. Yes they are indeed rare and i wish seniors/juniors would add a way to make it possible to get some sponges.
- what you have said about market. The region market is a sad place indeed. There are so many shops that are out of stock for months now or just a "work in progress" since the market was opened. There are a few people around market that care about their shop being stocked. But most of the people are not. As a shop owner in market i wish we could have a cleaner look, meaning that shops that are not taken care of by the owner should get taken care off by seniors/juniors (cleared out). That way you would see way better what shops still do their business. Because atm i have the feeling that people are even sick of it going to market to buy something bc they have to check about 50 shops to find what they are looking for while visiting 30 shops that didnt get restocked for many weeks now.
TheHypnon
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daphlipan wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 06:47
removed the poisonous potatoe trade
end busting is not worth the effort
The end is not extending its border anymore. its stuck at 3071 / / 3071
unraided end cities are very hard to find
have to spend hours in the end.

Voting gives you shulker shells as well and its way less dangerous to die while voting. Also if more people would vote on this server more shulkers would be going around which leads to much cheaper prices for them.
hm does this not feel like being blackmailed into voting for the server?
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HayanTokki
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Blackmail is if you were compromised somehow. If you don't vote, you search in the end. Hardly unfair a circumstance on a multiplayer server with limited resources. Votes are realistically the only way we keep cycling through players. Without votes, we have less people stopping by the server, and with no one stopping by the server, I see no reason to keep paying for the server out of pocket.

It's really hurtful to me as a provider to hear things like us putting voting to have benefits to be 'blackmail'.

As for diamonds/rhines, I had a stream awhile ago where I tried to see how much money I could earn in two hours. With a bit of afk'ing in about five to ten minute bouts and mining in the nether, I accrued about 50k. So I think it isn't that much of a grind to get rhines saved for elytra. If I lazed about, I'd be able to accrue it in a week to two weeks tops.
TheHypnon
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This would not be in any way a discussion point if there wasnt an affordable and fair(at least in my opinion) trade for shulkers before. As this was removed with no explanation and to the confusion of many, just to reappear as voting reward, one may come to the conclusion of "blackmail".
As I stated in an earlier thread before im not opposed to voting or voting rewards. But should they contain an essential item that cant be gotten reliably through intended means then it does seem like a vote-to-win scheme. Voting should be done out of free will for the honest belief in the server and the people on it not materialistic gains.

Also this step is not comparable to many of the other compromises of playing on a server like many of the lag prevention rules and limitations that we happily accept as this server is understandibly not run on a nasa supercomputer.

Also regarding the difference between the earlier trade and a voting reward. The trade was of fixed value that could be worked towards while the voting rewards are rng with periodic fixed rewards. If i had the choice of doing nothing and logging in once daily to vote and get an item I need for free or working towards a goal I can reach through hard work and dedication I will always choose the latter.
TheOneSoldier
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HayanTokki wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 15:17
As for diamonds/rhines, I had a stream awhile ago where I tried to see how much money I could earn in two hours. With a bit of afk'ing in about five to ten minute bouts and mining in the nether, I accrued about 50k. So I think it isn't that much of a grind to get rhines saved for elytra. If I lazed about, I'd be able to accrue it in a week to two weeks tops.
So your options are,
At minimum 8 hours of work with poor/diminishing returns for everyone, whether that would be though mining in the nether/overworld with 1 netherrack/cobblestone/stone block equal to 1/400,000 of an elytra (personally have 3.5~ million blocks mined at 3.4k hours)
End exploration, with the assumption that you never die/lose gear,
The slight possibility of making an (expensive) and profitable farm to afk there (Dozens of hours minimum) ,
Or niche trading with other players (Rare and valuable items for the most part)

The only alternative to this is through voting, with no sign of change anywhere else voting is the most reliable and safe way to obtain elytra/shulker boxes. There are zero other ways to make 200k for an elytra without 10x the effort and chance of making a shop in market or anywhere else and hoping to somehow make money with every other trade sign being broken.

Past comments from you or other seniors give me the impression that no additional trades will be added within the near future and no resets of any worlds will happen soon, making it very difficult/impossible to obtain rare items (shulkers/elytra/hearts of the sea/sponges, etc.) without voting for the chance to get shulker shells/diamonds/garbage or massive, inconvenient, lag prone farms that are actively discouraged.

This is all assuming you lose nothing and have sufficient equipment to not die while farming/exploring. You die and lose your stuff? Tough luck, spend more money/time getting back what you had again. Try using shops to speed it up? Oops, it is broken, your payment is gone and you have zero guarantee of any refunds.

You either vote or spend hours of time to compensate. If voting is the only way to realistically cycle through players, give me and everyone else a better reason to vote, not through effectively locking out items from the game. It isn't blackmail, but no one really has any choices in the matter.

If ideas for change are needed, the central trades thread suggests a bunch of ideas for new central trades and everyone here is welcome to suggest ideas for change.
:) Ruin
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Tiberaus
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TheHypnon wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 14:26
hm does this not feel like being blackmailed into voting for the server?
TheHypnon wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 16:28
This would not be in any way a discussion point if there wasnt an affordable and fair(at least in my opinion) trade for shulkers before. As this was removed with no explanation and to the confusion of many, just to reappear as voting reward, one may come to the conclusion of "blackmail".
You are objectively incorrect in saying giving out shulker shells as thanks for voting is blackmail. Blackmail is demanding payment from someone in return for not releasing compromising, embarrassing, or sensitive information about them. Pay-to-win is not synonymous with blackmail at all.

Shulker boxes are not an essential item at all. Essential would mean it is absolutely necessary to have in order to be reasonably expected to continue playing the game. Tools are an example of this; we wouldn't expect people to continue playing if it took several seconds to break each block. Shulker boxes are, quite literally, an endgame item. Yes, they make the game easier, but they are not required for a reasonable gameplay experience.

One of our main goals as a server is to incentivize and maintain a rotating player base (meaning we attract new players to replace players who leave.) Since voting has the most direct impact on increasing new player joins, we try to incentivize voting by offering rewards.

TheOneSoldier wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 18:02
Past comments from you or other seniors give me the impression that no additional trades will be added within the near future and no resets of any worlds will happen soon, making it very difficult/impossible to obtain rare items (shulkers/elytra/hearts of the sea/sponges, etc.) without voting for the chance to get shulker shells/diamonds/garbage or massive, inconvenient, lag prone farms that are actively discouraged.
There is a multitude of reasons why admin trades/shops have not made a comeback; with the main reason being agreement. We need several people to agree on a trade before we can implement it. If enough people do not agree to add a suggestion, it doesn't get added. Since it is easier for people to have different ideas than it is for everyone to agree on one, it makes logical sense that it is difficult to implement new trades.

The most actionable solution to this is for many people to suggest ideas. The people who are responsible for implementing new ideas cannot come up with all of them; it's just a matter of numbers. This is why we ask our community to put forward ideas they would like to see us implement. If you want to see new ideas, please put them on the forums for everyone to see- that is, after all, what the forums were created for.

TheOneSoldier wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 18:02
Try using shops to speed it up? Oops, it is broken, your payment is gone and you have zero guarantee of any refunds.
This issue is (to my knowledge) out of our hands. We don't have a reliable trading sign plugin, which is why the warning signs were installed in region market. There are other methods to trade with players without both parties being online that don't involve plugins.

TheOneSoldier wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 18:02
So your options are,
At minimum 8 hours of work with poor/diminishing returns for everyone, whether that would be though mining in the nether/overworld with 1 netherrack/cobblestone/stone block equal to 1/400,000 of an elytra (personally have 3.5~ million blocks mined at 3.4k hours)
End exploration, with the assumption that you never die/lose gear,
The slight possibility of making an (expensive) and profitable farm to afk there (Dozens of hours minimum) ,
Or niche trading with other players (Rare and valuable items for the most part)
Strictly speaking of rare items like elytra: there is a simple explanation for the difficulty behind obtaining these items: Player Count. It would be unreasonable to assume increasing the total number of players will have no effect on the difficulty in obtaining rare items. I understand you are not suggesting we should make elytra easy to get, but it should be understood that elytra are, by default, difficult and costly to acquire. The same goes for other rare items.

______

TL;DR:

We have identified the issue: there are too many hoops to jump through to amass wealth on the server. Sign shops break, end raiding slow and ineffective, everything is looted all the time, and vote rewards aren't a "real" solution. Vote rewards are not blackmail.

The seniors don't have all the answers. We need the players to help us and suggest ideas to consider. Propose custom trades or crafting recipes. Suggest new ways to obtain rare items. We need to hear your thoughts.
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TheHypnon
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Tiberaus wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 20:29

You are objectively incorrect in saying giving out shulker shells as thanks for voting is blackmail. Blackmail is demanding payment from someone in return for not releasing compromising, embarrassing, or sensitive information about them. Pay-to-win is not synonymous with blackmail at all.
I only noted that the timing of removing a trade then adding the item you got in that trade as a voting reward could be seen by some as a deliberate attemt to force people to vote.
Pay-to-win can be seen as blackmail if you dont have a fair chance at competition with others if you dont partake in the pay-to-win rewards.
Tiberaus wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 20:29
Shulker boxes are not an essential item at all. Essential would mean it is absolutely necessary to have in order to be reasonably expected to continue playing the game. Tools are an example of this; we wouldn't expect people to continue playing if it took several seconds to break each block. Shulker boxes are, quite literally, an endgame item. Yes, they make the game easier, but they are not required for a reasonable gameplay experience.
Yes shulkers are an endgame item and very much needed for "endgame", with a multitude of different building blocks needed for any kind of project, regardless whether its a farm, something aesthetic or even pixelart, your inventory will just not be enough. Next to allowing variety it simply expands the total amount you can carry thus saving you trips back to your storage. You would not call having above 3 hunger as nonessential just because you dont need running to beat the game.
Elytra are also not required for a reasonable endgame experience but a shop does exist for that now doesnt it?

Also as im sure you know this but this server, in this state, existed for 2 years already meaning that it, even without people carrying over their items from a previous server, would be safe to assume that we are in the "endgame" now.
Also also just because a large amount of the server population already made it into the "endgame" doesnt mean that new players should be coaxed into voting for a server that they didnt play on long enough to have an educated opinion on just because the rewards are too good to pass up.
Also also also as stated by others above getting a decent amount of shulkers is a difficult, tedious and dangerous task that does not get aided by the fact that we dont have regular nether resets, cant fly which would greatly reduce the chance or even the possibility of death(but i totally understand that you did remove that ability to allow fair competition) and dont have an expanding end map(which i also understand as stated above with limited server performance). But it would seem, as the regular resource world resets frequently, seemingly without the need of an agreement of multiple seniors, that this is a deliberate choice made by some or someone.
Kolas
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Tiberaus wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 20:29
There is a multitude of reasons why admin trades/shops have not made a comeback; with the main reason being agreement. We need several people to agree on a trade before we can implement it. If enough people do not agree to add a suggestion, it doesn't get added. Since it is easier for people to have different ideas than it is for everyone to agree on one, it makes logical sense that it is difficult to implement new trades.
I don't see how this reason stands. The players have gone out of their way to make a list of agreeable price for items and constantly revise as more suggestions come in. Never have we heard that the reason for not adding old style admin shops was that there is no agreeable price for items. If the players were told that they need to come to a conclusion on price of various items, you would have list ready in a week. We had a great economy last map and that was with all the admin shops that existed. If we can get a list of reasons for not adding more admin shops like last map, we can have a discussion and find a solution.

And since you are open for suggestions, I would like to share one:

Instead of removing admin trades of items that can be farmed, just nerf the prices.

The argument I have seen so far about farm-able items being sold to server is that it is a low effort way of amassing huge amounts of rhines. Yet making large and efficient farms take a lot of effort, gathering all the materials, mining out the area and doing all the redstone and more. At the same time, we are not supposed to make huge automatic farms that run 24x7. Having too many hoppers is not allowed, having automatic clock is not allowed, afk-ing at farms for long is not allowed and in general is discouraged.

Food items like pumpkins, melons, etc, cactus, emeralds were all removed. Only things that can be sold to the server are things that almost no one cares for and only reason to sell them is to get rid of them and reduce lag by not leaving them on the ground. Instead of looking at people who are rich and already have large farms, take a look at people who do not have every farm possible already built. emerald trades were op because once a trading hall is setup, it is very easy to keep it running and the price did not match the effort in the long term. The solution should have been reducing their worth, not removing the trade completely.

Without making it too long, all i suggest is we should be adding more ways of generating rhines than just selling stuff to people since it is not very reliable and mining alone can take very long and gets boring after a point. Keeping balance is the key, the trades should not be op but they should still exist to give more options to the players. Would love to hear feedback on the idea.
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