The server economy is kinda dead

You can talk about anything here.
daphlipan
Hermit
Hermit
Posts: 18
Joined: 15 Sep 2019, 05:56
Minecraft Name: daphlipan

Tiberaus wrote:There is a multitude of reasons why admin trades/shops have not made a comeback; with the main reason being agreement. We need several people to agree on a trade before we can implement it. If enough people do not agree to add a suggestion, it doesn't get added. Since it is easier for people to have different ideas than it is for everyone to agree on one, it makes logical sense that it is difficult to implement new trades.

The most actionable solution to this is for many people to suggest ideas. The people who are responsible for implementing new ideas cannot come up with all of them; it's just a matter of numbers. This is why we ask our community to put forward ideas they would like to see us implement. If you want to see new ideas, please put them on the forums for everyone to see- that is, after all, what the forums were created for.
Well if you look in the General Discussion you will find multiple people requesting for a central trades comeback. Not only did they request for it, they brought their ideas to the topic. You will find 2 pages of ideas on how future central trades could look like. Also there is definetly a common sense. So people mostly agree with each other.. The ideas are there. But what else do you need us to do? Do we have to be like 100 players requesting for the same thing? Because i can tell you that wont ever happen. Too few people are actively playing on the server atm and even less are willing to argue on the forums. Why dont you just listen to the ideas of the 10-15 players that make their way to the forums and ask very nicely for new things or old things coming back. I don't see a lack of ideas there, sorry.
User avatar
HayanTokki
Owner
Owner
Posts: 763
Joined: 10 Sep 2018, 10:42
Minecraft Name: HayanTokki

TheHypnon wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 02:55
I only noted that the timing of removing a trade then adding the item you got in that trade as a voting reward could be seen by some as a deliberate attemt to force people to vote.
Pay-to-win can be seen as blackmail if you dont have a fair chance at competition with others if you dont partake in the pay-to-win rewards.
We removed the trades around January or February. The voting reward got fixed in around May. Hardly seems like any sort of attempt at anything. This is in addition to the fact that we've tried having these vote rewards since even before this current map.
TheHypnon wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 02:55
Yes shulkers are an endgame item and very much needed for "endgame", with a multitude of different building blocks needed for any kind of project, regardless whether its a farm, something aesthetic or even pixelart, your inventory will just not be enough. Next to allowing variety it simply expands the total amount you can carry thus saving you trips back to your storage. You would not call having above 3 hunger as nonessential just because you dont need running to beat the game.
Elytra are also not required for a reasonable endgame experience but a shop does exist for that now doesnt it?
Maybe I'm just oldschool. I don't know. I don't even use my shulker boxes. The ones we get free each event even if we don't vote.
TheHypnon wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 02:55
Also as im sure you know this but this server, in this state, existed for 2 years already meaning that it, even without people carrying over their items from a previous server, would be safe to assume that we are in the "endgame" now.
Also also just because a large amount of the server population already made it into the "endgame" doesnt mean that new players should be coaxed into voting for a server that they didnt play on long enough to have an educated opinion on just because the rewards are too good to pass up.
We can't bar players on where or when they reach 'end game' as some people take weeks and some take hours. If they don't vote, they don't vote.
TheHypnon wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 02:55
Also also also as stated by others above getting a decent amount of shulkers is a difficult, tedious and dangerous task that does not get aided by the fact that we dont have regular nether resets, cant fly which would greatly reduce the chance or even the possibility of death(but i totally understand that you did remove that ability to allow fair competition) and dont have an expanding end map(which i also understand as stated above with limited server performance). But it would seem, as the regular resource world resets frequently, seemingly without the need of an agreement of multiple seniors, that this is a deliberate choice made by some or someone.
Regular resource world resets about as often as the end does.
Najyk
Hermit
Hermit
Posts: 40
Joined: 23 Mar 2020, 15:18
Minecraft Name: Najyk

I just wanna add to this: I think the shulker situation isn't as dire as people are saying right now. If people vote a lot, like I do, they will inevitably get more shulkers than they need. Those can then be spread around the server through the economy. Meaning, it's not necessary to vote to get some shulkers.

About the central trades, I agree with daphlipan. We, the players, already put a fair amount of ideas out here on the forums a while ago. I would like to see some introduced into the game, because I want everyone to be abled to use stuff like gilded blackstone and sponges even if everything is raided.

And market is indeed a mess these days. I propose we put out a rule that all shop owners need to check all their shop signs for bugs and correct them. If they don't and somebody then reports this (as in, loses some dia to a sign), and a senior can give a warning/remove the shop alltogether immediately. It would also clean up the market, apart from the bugs.
TheHypnon
Hermit
Hermit
Posts: 34
Joined: 11 Sep 2018, 17:30
Minecraft Name: TheHypnon

HayanTokki wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 11:54

We removed the trades around January or February. The voting reward got fixed in around May. Hardly seems like any sort of attempt at anything. This is in addition to the fact that we've tried having these vote rewards since even before this current map.
Image

The main problem that still stands as trades were removed and to this day no explanation was given. I also still believe that a valuable item should be gotten through hard work(like with heart of the sea) and not through a gacha mechanic. This will give players incentive to keep playing and a goal they can set fot themselves as opposed to click the 7 links and hope that rngesus will grace them with good stuff.

HayanTokki wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 11:54
Maybe I'm just oldschool. I don't know. I don't even use my shulker boxes.
That is literally no argument.
HayanTokki wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 11:54
We can't bar players on where or when they reach 'end game' as some people take weeks and some take hours. If they don't vote, they don't vote.
I did not make any statement on when players "should" get into endgame. I did make a statement that players should get to know the server first, its rules, its mechanics, its limitations and the playerbase to see if they even stick around and are happy. Voting should come after that.
For example I played on this server for 2 years already but only quite recently realized that the entity cramming limit is only 4 instead of 24. Now as i said before i dont complain about the rules implemented to reduce lag, and entity cramming farms are quite lag heavy but many of these rules are not out in the open and may be a factor in deciding if a new player decides to stay or be happy to vote if they stay, as is their freedom.
I think having these kinds of voting rewards will infringe on that freedom(an example for this is price gouging, no person that has only a low amount of disposable income has a real choice between a quality product of high value and a comparable product with a significantly lower price).
HayanTokki wrote:
04 Nov 2020, 11:54
Regular resource world resets about as often as the end does.
And the difference between the regular resource and the end resource is that the end resource world has a lot less things in it for the same amount of space. The normal resource world can be used to get large amounts of generic blocks that appear in large quantites in certain biomes(sand, terracotta, gravel, ice) or to seek out diamonds(stripming), while the end resource world is almost exclusively used to hunt for end cities and ships to get the loot and mobs that spawn there only once.
This, combined with the low render distance and the inability to fly, turns this into a risky and time consuming endeavor where you bridge over the void knowing that a single slip up or pc hiccup will send you to your certain doom just to find that there isnt even an island in that direction or that it already has been looted as the last reset was ages ago.
User avatar
HayanTokki
Owner
Owner
Posts: 763
Joined: 10 Sep 2018, 10:42
Minecraft Name: HayanTokki

We just don't see that it is necessary to reset the end more frequently than we do when most of it isnt even discovered by the time people start asking for resets. It is a lot of upkeep.

As for why the trades were removed, we've mentioned a few times between here, discord, and in game that the plug in no longer worked. Not to mention that I've also stated the npc shops were temporary to start with.

We have very limited options when it comes to setting up admin shops as we are held back by limitations of the plug in and I am not willing to dish out more money to get a plug in developed when the server currently has no real incoming donation to keep it up to start with.

We've gone over between seniors and juniors the idea of introducing more admin shops but the poll has always been so heavily split between "providing shops makes end game too accessible too early" and "limited items need to circulate". As it stands, trading via the sign shops don't work as intended (again, something we can't do much about), and the server always complains every time we try to introduce more into the economy via the rhines system not to mention that it is difficult to introduce things via rhines shops because of how game breaking it can be (referring to note block shop, blaze rod shop, sponge shop, elytra shop from previous maps). We discuss this frequently every meeting we have and realistically, we can never really sit on a conclusion. But it isnt for a lack of trying.
TheHypnon
Hermit
Hermit
Posts: 34
Joined: 11 Sep 2018, 17:30
Minecraft Name: TheHypnon

HayanTokki wrote:
05 Nov 2020, 11:47
We just don't see that it is necessary to reset the end more frequently than we do when most of it isnt even discovered by the time people start asking for resets. It is a lot of upkeep.
I just listed all the reasons above, maybe its too unrealistic to get to 2500/70/2500 in the first place just to see if there even stuff there. Also Ive talked to some players that actually gone to the map border and, maybe mistakenly, believed that the end was completely stripped already.
Personally I cant go into the end as I dont trust my pc enough to not yeet me into the void randomly.
HayanTokki wrote:
05 Nov 2020, 11:47
As for why the trades were removed, we've mentioned a few times between here, discord, and in game that the plug in no longer worked. Not to mention that I've also stated the npc shops were temporary to start with.
Just noting that Im not part of the faction that wants an admin shop for everything, as that would need huge amount of work to setup and upkeep with the prices and for 95% of the items its pointless anyways.
All i know is that there still exists a custom trade in central and that there is no way that adding one or two more trades to that will break the server.
HayanTokki wrote:
05 Nov 2020, 11:47
We have very limited options when it comes to setting up admin shops as we are held back by limitations of the plug in and I am not willing to dish out more money to get a plug in developed when the server currently has no real incoming donation to keep it up to start with.
Understandable, i dont expect you to spend money to cater to the need of every player. Just as noted above the removal of some but not all trades makes it seem like a deliberate choice.
HayanTokki wrote:
05 Nov 2020, 11:47
We've gone over between seniors and juniors the idea of introducing more admin shops but the poll has always been so heavily split between "providing shops makes end game too accessible too early" and "limited items need to circulate". As it stands, trading via the sign shops don't work as intended (again, something we can't do much about), and the server always complains every time we try to introduce more into the economy via the rhines system not to mention that it is difficult to introduce things via rhines shops because of how game breaking it can be (referring to note block shop, blaze rod shop, sponge shop, elytra shop from previous maps). We discuss this frequently every meeting we have and realistically, we can never really sit on a conclusion. But it isnt for a lack of trying.
The communication in multiple threads over the last two months between the server population and the seniors was less than ideal. While i totally understand that in some cases complaints were dutifully ignored(insert "pls let be build my super mega farm on top of the nether roof wont produce any lag I swear" here), but in the case of others thats less understandable.
Most attempts to talk about server decisions or the giving of constructive criticism was blocked off leading to the frustration of some of the more motivated members of the server population.
That combined with the lack of anouncements regarding important changes or issues and the state of the market with abandoned shops and buggy signs(even though that cant be helped right now) cant help but make some feel rather resigned or helpless.
User avatar
Wixler_17
Old Hermit
Old Hermit
Posts: 60
Joined: 27 Sep 2019, 00:36
Minecraft Name: Wixler_17

I just wanted to put my opinion on this argument. Please do note that this is an opinion, and that not all opinions are always correct, or should be enforced

The server claims to be a vanilla, or at least as vanilla as it can be without anarchy and isolation of other players (Refering to claims, sign shops and region pole).

1st thing, shulkers. In a vanilla environment, you'd be able to fly around in the end and collect all the shulkers/loot to your heart's content, but there is a major problem with that. The biggest one being that the end would be empty within seconds from a reset by end-game players, and discouraging for mid-game players that want to get an elytra. This was the problem in V2. There is lag too, but gonna avoid that point for this post. I think BH took the right approach with the lack of flying in the end and the expanding barrier. The problem is that the end just isn't reset enough* to accommodate the demand of resources it offers. To counter demand you need a higher supply. There is voting which the server does encourage greatly (which I have nothing against), but other than that, that's about it. I think we could introduce other ways to get stuff that doesn't ruin the vanilla style too hard:
-Trading: The poisonous potatoes trade was really good for the shulkers, but understandable why they removed it. Same for the god apple for elytras**
-Crafting: This was mentioned by Tib I think and could be a great idea. It should be stuff that are relatively difficult to get to avoid abuse and to encourage voting, but still there for an alternative (up for discussion) .
-Changing mob drops: This is a risky one, since many mobs are very farmable. Maybe increase shulker drops to 100% guarantee, or 2 shells on occasion, or have it so when you beat the dragon you get on average 1-5 shells (again, up for debate).

2nd thing is trading. Market has been hit and miss recently due to the decline of player activity since the school year (for the northern hemisphere at least) has started. Quaranteen in march brought everyone back, but since that is not happening in most places anymore (or at least in Canada and the States as far as I know), players just don't play as much. They also move on to other things. Keeping shops stocked is just not possible, and it also doesn't help that sign shops are not working properly, which discourages the whole thing even more. I do want to thank the seniors for not bugging everyone for keeping shops past their expiry date in shops, as I'm sure they are aware of the decline (Don't know if this is actually true or not, just noticed there are no notices in the forums for the past couple months). Here is my list of ideas to improve this scene a bit more:
-Use the auto chat to warn players of the malfunction. I realized that the trade signs don't work after falling for it a couple of times. This suggestion should go for any game-changing rules as well to inform players when making farms, such as the different entity cramming
-Have a committee put a markers for active shops and non-active ones. This would reduce the frustration of going to market and finding empty shops, while still keeping the owner in it. I feel like with the global situation and new lockdowns being put in place, that we might have another spike of players, new and returning... The market should be obvious yet not beacon level of obvious. Maybe an armour stand with red leather on it and a sign

3rd Sponges. This one should be in unlimited supply. I know that in vanilla Minecraft sponges are not renewable blocks, but the thing is that there are normally way more monuments, but due to a smaller world, we don't have that option, which is very understandable. I am currently renting out my sponges since there is such a low supply of em for other players. Two easy ways I think that could easily fix this is:
-Make a crafting recipe: Something like one heart of the sea, one trident*** and a bunch of prismarine bricks can make 16 say. Hearts of the sea are renewable with the villager in central.
-Make it a 1% drop from normal guardians: Pretty self explanatory, although does bring up the point of a monopoly...

4th Rhines: This one is quite difficult. The biggest argument that is against the whole thing is with the subject of the elytra. I honestly think that elytra should at least have an alternative way (other than voting, rhines or exploring the end) to acquire. This can lead to player based shops to sell em. I do think that the shop should still exist to prevent ridiculous inflation, but is just not viable to players that can't get the income necessary. This one should be debated.

I'd also like to remind players that you're using someone's server for free, or at the very least, for an extremely low amount of money. Maybe it's just the Canadian stereotype in me, but seniors****are humans too. They want to make the server great for everyone, while also not making it an unfair field. I do agree that somethings that we suggest don't get properly acknowledged, but they do as much as they can. They do this in their free time.

Admin-based shops for more basic items would ruin market even more. Seniors have said that they want to encourage player to player trades, and admin shops ruin that experience


*The end shouldn't be reset more than it already is. This just doesn't solve the issue. When the end reset, it is almost immediately raided and new cities are so much farther and harder to come by. Doing more resets would just be pointless
**Players even have this trade up in market. Encouraging the search of God Apples in the resource world
***I am sure how tools work in crafting recipes, due to durability and enchantments, but I'm just suggesting something that is rare-ish. Could be replaced by anything
****When I mention seniors, I am also referring to the juniors as well

tl;dr

1 Make end stuff more accessible with either trades, crafting or changing certain mob drops
2 Market is not in the greater shape and there it's not really in anyone control
3 Sponges should be made renewable using the same ways as point 1
4 The Rhines situation is quite difficult atm

Cheers!
I went to bed and looked at the stars

and then I thought...

Where is my ceiling?
User avatar
iron621
Old Hermit
Old Hermit
Posts: 179
Joined: 10 Sep 2018, 18:03
Minecraft Name: iron62

I think that if the ender dragon dropped a elytra or had a 50% chance of dropping it that means you wouldn't need a trading mob. I think voting for shulkers is fine, I get a new one almost everyday. I get like 5-12 a month which seems pretty good.

I understand that Hayan and the seniors are trying to keep this server as survival as possible, and limiting the different excessive things. It is hard to find different rare items in the resource world even if flying. I flew through basically the whole resource world and didn't find any un-raided dessert temples. Not sure if that's what the RW is for, but I don't want to search regions in the overworld, so that anyone who lives there can find it themselves.
“I just want to lie on the beach and eat hot dogs. That’s all I’ve ever wanted.” – Kevin Malone
User avatar
Tiberaus
Old Hermit
Old Hermit
Posts: 348
Joined: 10 Sep 2018, 18:27
Minecraft Name: Tiberaus

Here is my take. Take it with a grain of salt, as it is merely subjective.

When I hear the term "semi-vanilla" I interpret it as "using plug-ins only when they are needed to provide a vanilla experience that would otherwise not exist due to the large player base." We aim to emulate the feel of a small server while maintaining a rotating player base.

World size is a main factor that sets us apart from other similar servers. A smaller world size means fewer loot chests which, in turn, yield fewer rare resources. The cleanest solution (as in, the solution that feels the least modded) is to provide crafting recipes for non-renewable resouces.

Not every item on this page needs a custom crafting recipe. I am mainly referring to the items in the "Generated Structures" table. Players will have differing opinions on what items should receive a recipe. I think making recipes for the following items (from the "Central Trades" thread") is a good starting place: Pigstep, Heart of the Sea, Sponge, and Guilded Blackstone. Additionally, Cobwebs and Snout Patterns could be added. I would add Shulker Shells and Elytra to this list, but I personally think they work very well as a voting reward.

I also really like the idea of elytra and shulker shells as a rare ender dragon drop. It requires lots of effort, and isn't really practical to farm at scale.

The reason I say "recipes" and not "trades" is because recipes are just trades that don't require you to travel to an npc. I personally think custom crafting recipes feel more vanilla than npc trades.

Again, just a suggestion. A grain of salt.
Stay at home, Save the world.

"Asking for help is never an admission of defeat."
― Unknown

Block Hermit Non-Official DiscordSupport The Server
daphlipan
Hermit
Hermit
Posts: 18
Joined: 15 Sep 2019, 05:56
Minecraft Name: daphlipan

I personally like what you just said, tib. Wixlers idea about mob drops would be a cool addition and would solve the "problem" that the end is so hard to take on without flying and not being endless and without borders.

Another thing i would like to add, just as some people mentioned earlier, is that i also am a fan of having end game items or other precious items as a result of GRIND! Thats why i liked the poisonous potatoe trade, thats why i like the heart of the sea trade. Because you wont get it randomly via voting (not saying anything against the voting system). At this certain time i think the rabbit feet for heart of the sea trade is the only thing where grinding pays off. I know some people refer end busting as grind too but i dont think so. I put tons and tons of work into a farm design that is server friendly and gives me still some poisonous potatoes in the end, but then the trade got removed. That is another reason why i feel a little burnt out. Because once you take on a big project it may be not worth the effort in the end, bc "things changes".

Thats the main reason id love to see some grind-payoff-solutions again. Even if its not the poisonous potatoe. And here again i have to agree, that "recipes" would feel more vanilla like than trading npcs.

Have a nice day!
Post Reply